Reading Between the Lines: Key Takeaways from Giving USA

00:00 - 00:26

Every year, nonprofits and foundations of all kinds eagerly anticipate the release of the Annual Giving USA report. This is where we get key data on who's giving and where. If no one's been to the theater in a year, how is the arts and culture sector fared philanthropically? And why did overall giving to healthcare supposedly declined during a global pandemic? And finally, are people or corporations more or less generous after a harrowing year? Today, we're exploring these questions and more.

00:31 - 01:12

Hi, everyone, welcome to Inspired Investing. I'm your host, Clare Golla. I'm the Head of our foundation and institutional advisory team at Bernstein. And this podcast is where we strive to connect and share insights with listeners like you who are engaged in the nonprofit and broader philanthropy sector or who just want to learn more. Today, I'm very excited to be joined by Laura MacDonald, chair of the Giving USA Foundation and founder of Benefactor Group. Laura has a keen eye for innovations in fundraising and philanthropy, having served the nonprofit sector for four decades. In addition, we're welcoming back Margaret Borrasso, who heads up our client engagement services and also has a background in nonprofit fundraising. So thank you so much, both of you, for coming today.

01:12 - 01:13

Happy to be here.

01:13 - 01:14

Thanks for having me.

01:14 - 01:25

So, Laura, before we dive into the takeaways from the Giving USA report, I was hoping you could just provide a little context or share a little bit of your personal journey. How did you, how did you come to chair the Giving USA Foundation?

01:26 - 02:19

Well, first of all, I consider it one of the great privileges of my career to be able to chair this organization that I had heard about throughout my entire career in the nonprofit sector, starting with a position as a consultant with a firm in the mid 80s, period of time at the Ohio State University during their first billion dollar campaign, and then establishing this firm 20 years ago. The Giving USA Foundation is the public service initiative of the Giving Institute, which is a professional association of firms like ours, plus some of the big technology providers and other for-profit organizations that work in the philanthropy space. And so as I was invited to join the Giving Institute, you begin to dig in as a member and ultimately as a board member. And so I was asked to serve on the editorial review board of Giving USA, and that just led to deeper and deeper involvement and eventually the privilege of serving this leadership role.

02:19 - 02:43

That's fantastic. And even being on the editorial board of this report alone, I would imagine is quite a bit of work. There's a lot of information. It's pretty dense. The release of the Giving USA report is so...it's highly anticipated. Every year, people are awaiting the data, but not as many people really know what's behind it or how long it's been around. Could you just give us sort of a high level synopsis of the history or how it came to be?

02:43 - 03:30

Sure. So Giving USA has been published now for I believe this is our 66th or 67th year. So it becomes this really rich treasure trove of longitudinal data that helps us understand what happens to the sources of giving and the uses of giving in various kinds of social and economic circumstances, provides great insights for those who want to plan for the future, those who are thinking about their own giving in an intentional and sophisticated way. It was published by the American Association of Fundraising Council, now the Giving Institute. And we then retain the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University to do the research and the writing. And they're the gold standard when it comes to academic understanding of philanthropy.

03:30 - 03:36

Working with the incomparable Dr Una Osili and our managing editor, Dr. Ana Pruitt.

03:37 - 03:41

That's fantastic. Yes, it's amazing. The Lilly School is incredibly impressive.

03:41 - 03:50

So with that in mind, looking at all of this longitudinal data over 67 years, what are some of the top takeaways from this year's report?

03:51 - 03:53

That's a tough one because it was such an uncommon year.

03:53 - 03:57

It was? Yeah, yeah.

03:57 - 04:26

It was about, you know, we had this confluence of circumstances from a global pandemic to a recession. There was a recession during a part of the year to this rising understanding of racial inequality in our country and the need to address that, to social distancing, to the stimulus of the CARES Act. I mean, all of these influences mean that I would look at this year's data very closely, but I would say that if it's a data point, not a trend. Yeah.

04:26 - 05:23

So when we take a look at what happened in 2020, first of all, it reconfirmed for many of us that charitable giving is resilient. There's enormous generosity in America and that it was expressed fully in 2020. Giving from individuals held steady with strong 2.2 percent growth in current dollars, huge growth in giving from foundations. So 17 percent growth in giving from foundations. We were disappointed to see that giving declined from corporations and it remained at 1.8 percent, less than one percent of corporate pretax profits, where it has been for quite a while. You know, there was a time when Ken Dayton, whose family founded Target stores, advocated for corporations to give five percent of corporate pretax profits, thinking that it was both good for the businesses and good for the communities they served. And yet we continue to see that the policy environment and the financial environment is not currently conducive to achieving anything close to that.

05:24 - 05:42

So here's a question that I was flabbergasted by this. And yes, I saw all the basic services being met, but healthcare causes, it looked like they declined. And in a year of a global pandemic, you would think that...and I was like, is this non Covid related health? Maybe you could help unpack that a little bit.

05:43 - 05:51

Happy to. So, yes. Giving to health declined three percent Giving to health represents nine percent of total charitable giving.

05:51 - 05:56

So about forty two billion dollars in 2020, which is serious money.

05:56 - 06:48

Yeah, but it did decline and there are a couple of reasons why. So let's think for a moment about all of the research that went into fueling an accelerated vaccine for Covid-19. You would think that those were all giving to health, right? When Dolly Parton gave a million dollars to vaccine research, she gave it to Vanderbilt University healthcare. It counts as a gift to education. So that's one of the reasons that we see growth in giving to education, is because a lot of the academic healthcare is what was doing some of that work. So that's one part of it. The other part is that this sector includes a lot of national associations that focus on specific diseases or chronic ailments, arthritis, cancer, what have you. And many of those organizations have really adopted the run, walk, ride model for fundraising, Race for the Cure, what have you. Those didn't happen in 2020.

06:48 - 06:49

All canceled.

06:49 - 07:10

Yeah. They tried to do virtual versions. In some cases they did well, they usually didn't generate as much as the actual versions. Their costs were a lot lower typically. So they might have netted out OK, but those I think are the two main factors that contribute to this confounding decline in giving to health in the midst of a global health crisis.

07:10 - 07:44

OK, that's really helpful. And actually, that piece, the last piece about the walks and rides and whatnot makes a ton of sense, too. And we saw that with some institutions that we work with. Something that's related to that. We also work with a number of both arts and culture organizations and think like, folks that like, institutions where you buy a ticket and you show up. Right. As well as we work with lots of churches and synagogues and other faith-based institutions around the country, again, to a varying degree, many are traditionally passing the basket, literally. Right. And these were challenges.

07:44 - 07:49

So I'm just curious if you could comment a little bit on both of those sectors.

07:49 - 07:58

So let me comment on giving to religion first. And according to our report, that continues to be the largest recipient of charitable dollars.

07:58 - 08:03

Now, early in my career, giving to religion was more than half of all charitable giving.

08:03 - 08:34

It has grown but grown more slowly than most other sectors. And so it's lost, lost market share and now represents, what, about 28 percent of all charitable giving. So we see a couple of things going on. One is giving to religion in current dollar terms did increase one percent in 2020. It declined adjusted for inflation. So let's call that even. And you're right, any... and this is almost exclusively giving to houses of worship of any faith also includes media ministries and a few other small things.

08:34 - 08:37

things. it's almost exclusively houses of worship.

08:38 - 09:15

If a congregation had not adopted some form of digital giving, then they really had to do it very quickly. As soon as they realized their congregation was not going to be worshipping in person for an extended period of time. Some did successfully. I will say things like mega churches. The report I hear from my colleagues who work in that space is that they never skipped a beat. Some of the more traditional mainline Protestant denominations, old school Jewish synagogues that had been more accustomed to in person, they really did see that they had to adopt some new technologies very quickly or else go with that.

09:16 - 10:12

So the other thing that we know about giving to religion is that traditionally there's been a high correlation between households that make charitable gifts and households that participate regularly in worship, worship of any faith. And we know that since the beginning of this century, the number of households that actively participate in worship has declined by about 20 million households, and that the number of households that annually participate in charitable giving has declined by about 20 million households, not the same households. We can't take causatio yet, but it's concerning because that traditionally in America has been where many people learn their philanthropic habits. And so where do we teach those if now the largest contingent of Americans are what we call the Nones. When you ask them what their religious affiliation is, their answer is None. So that's a, it is a concern.

10:12 - 10:18

Yeah. That's not to be confused with nuns, which is what I was thinking, being raised Catholic.

10:18 - 10:19

Right.

10:19 - 10:23

Got it. Which is also a declining population to a certain extent.

10:23 - 10:23

Yeah.

10:23 - 10:40

So OK, if households are...at any given individual household...that number. Right. Of average households that you would think of sort of as comprising the sort of bread and butter annual gifts, right, that a lot of organizations rely on year in, year out, if that's decreasing,

10:41 - 10:46

the flip side is that overall giving from individuals is increasing.

10:46 - 10:52

It's a select number of high-net-worth, ultrahigh-net-worth households that are giving more.

10:53 - 11:38

So we've been saying for several years now that it's dollars up, donors down. But let's unpack that a little bit. The data suggests that about 90 percent of all high-net-worth households participate in charitable giving, and that's defined as households with annual earnings of 200,000 dollars a year or more and accumulated assets of a million dollars or more, excluding the primary residence. So they do tend to participate. But as we look at everyday households and those, for example, will no longer be itemizing their deductions in their taxes. Yep, we've seen declining participation over many years and we saw it before the change in the tax law that...so that we were able to see it through tax returns as well as some other econometric models that we use.

11:38 - 12:28

But when you dig a little bit deeper, what you find is that in any given year prior to the pandemic, in any given year, about 55-56 percent of households participated in charitable giving. 90 percent of the high-net-worth households, a lower percent of everyday households. But households typically would...may not give every year, but they might give every other year or every third year. And so if you broaden the time frame beyond just a single calendar year, you still see that a higher proportion of American households do participate in formal philanthropy in some way. What we are beginning to realize is that more and more households are participating in other ways, through mutual aid societies, through GoFundMe go activities that to support a small business or a specific struggling individual.

12:29 - 13:11

So it's not the only measure of generosity and we want to be clear about that. There are lots of ways people express generosity, but it is a concern. There is a study called the Fundraising Effectiveness Project that did cite that a higher proportion of households did participate in charitable giving in 2020 than had been typically participating. And that's heartening to me as well. I think we had clients, for example, food banks, that shortly after the arrival of stimulus checks, they were getting gifts of twelve hundred dollars; households that knew that they were fortunate enough to continue to have a paycheck or to have a financial cushion, and they were putting that money right back out to help their friends and neighbors.

13:11 - 13:33

So I think we saw some great generosity. We saw Giving as a percent of GDP increase. Now, part of that is because GDP is huge and it does prove that as a society, we have the capacity to to be even more generous than what's been measured in Giving USA over the last few years. Sure. Sure.

13:33 - 14:12

It'll be interesting looking forward. This is obviously fodder for another podcast. But to look at the proliferation of ways that individuals can vote with their pocketbook or be generous and whether it's with your purchases, with thinking about really more holistically how you're living your life and in terms...rather than just traditional giving back of monetary gifts. So it's really interesting, I think, to look at that one trend over time and just see how that develops over time. So thank you for unpacking some of those data points.

14:12 - 14:17

Can I just touch briefly on arts and culture since it is near and dear to my heart? Yes.

14:17 - 14:37

So giving to arts and culture declined seven and a half percent. And we also saw that arts organizations that traditionally, or cultural institutions that traditionally rely on earned revenue from ticket sales and admissions, clearly that went away. Science museums or children's museums, 80 percent, zoos, 80 percent of the revenue maybe from the gate.

14:37 - 14:42

They really were hit hard. We saw a lot of art museums or performing arts organizations

14:42 - 14:59

That subscribers oftentimes were turning their tickets back in in the form of a charitable gift. And typically for an art museum, for example, they have a higher proportion of philanthropic revenue and donors there remained pretty steady.

14:59 - 15:05

And so while they still saw declines, they weren't as gruesome, frankly, as we saw for science museums.

15:06 - 15:36

But keep this in mind, when it comes to charitable giving, during the Great Recession, giving to arts and culture decline 17.5 percent. So while we're concerned about a 7.5 percent drop, we also know that giving to arts and culture tends to be very sensitive to what's happening in the broader economy when the economy struggles, giving to arts and culture struggles and it comes back strong. And so I think if arts organizations can make a case that is relevant for time that we find ourselves in, they can continue to see growth coming out of this.

15:36 - 15:37

That's really interesting.

15:37 - 16:07

I would also argue with arts and culture, it will be interesting to see, you mentioned earlier in your comments the unbelievable growth in awareness this year, throughout the past year in racial inequity across the country. It'll be really interesting to see what types of arts and culture organizations or initiatives or how that shifts as well from the traditional, I would argue, philanthropy to many cultural institutions.

16:08 - 16:35

I think about a couple of examples. One is the Ohio History Connection, which is the official keeper of the history in the state of Ohio. After the protests in downtown Columbus, the capital city, they collected all of the murals that had been painted on the boards that covered up the broken windows in downtown buildings. They're now a part of their collection. They're reinterpreting them for future generations. So I think that that's one example.

16:35 - 17:25

Another is our friends at the Speed Museum, which is the encyclopedic art museum in Louisville, Kentucky. When the portrait of Breonna Taylor appeared on the cover of Vanity Fair, painted by the same artist as Michelle Obama's official portrait, stunning piece of artwork, they knew that that piece of artwork had to be shared with their community. And so they worked...and actually now that piece of artwork is owned jointly by the Speed Museum and the National Portrait Gallery, Smithsonian. And they put together an incredible exhibition around this particular moment in their community featuring other artists, BIPOC artists. It was a risky thing for them to do, an organization that was traditionally associated with White privilege going down this path and needing to engage new voices and new audiences to make it work.

17:25 - 17:27

And they were extraordinarily successful.

17:27 - 17:28

I give them all the credit in the world.

17:29 - 17:32

So interesting. Great examples. Thank you for sharing that.

17:32 - 17:50

So, Margaret, I want to bring you into the conversation as the lead partner to our clients at all things really development-related. As you've been listening to this and as you read through the Giving USA report, what are some of the most effective uses that you see for the folks that we partner with?

17:51 - 18:15

Yeah, thanks, Clare. I think it's important to kind of dimension who we partner with, too, because there's kind of two ways to look at this report and digest that information. On the foundation grant maker side, those giving funds away, and then on the nonprofit institution organizations, those seeking grants and fundraising. So there's kind of two uses for this report. For the foundations and those giving money away,

18:15 - 19:13

foundations are the fastest growing source of giving. Most families and individuals are looking to institutionalize their giving, they need supports in place. So we've been working with a ton of our clients to create institutional memory and really formalize their philanthropy. And one of the ways that this report comes into play is encouraging intentional and consistent giving. So taking a look at trends and making sure, are we just following trends as an organization, or are we staying on mission and really putting money into support things that we truly believe in year after year and over time. So that's ensuring that alignment between the mission and the giving that's actually taking place. I also think that there's a little bit of innovation that may not be reflected in this data because it focuses, like Laura was saying, on that monetary way of giving. I think what we saw a lot in this past kind of unprecedented time was creative ways

19:13 - 19:17

funders stepped up that wouldn't be apparent. New skills.

19:17 - 20:01

Zoom accounts for free for organizations that they partner with; the removal of red tape around the grant making process, which I've been... as a former fundraiser, I've been a huge advocate for that for a long time. But that trust-based giving, community-centric fundraising instead of donor-centric fundraising, what actually is what the community needs and the community might know how to ask for that instead of being told in a top-down approach, here's the money. Here's how you're going to fix your problem. So that's one of the things I wanted to make sure to highlight here, too, is, one way a foundation can use this is to align giving and mission, make sure they're consistent, but also there's ways they can explore outside of giving as well.

20:01 - 20:35

Now, on the nonprofit side of things, I have a ton of personal experience with how to leverage this. And so thank you, Laura, for years and years of a fodder for great board conversations great. It's report that brings to life the fundraising and development, also opportunities and challenges that the staff faces every day. For a board who doesn't live and breathe this every day to bring to life where funding goes, to educate board members, but also where funding comes from.

20:35 - 21:18

So where does an organization kind of fit in the giving landscape? What dollars is an organization competing for within their own kind of category, but also in the bigger landscape of things? Laura was saying this, and I've been telling our clients this all year. How do you make and frame your programs as relevant for a specific time in history or for a specific moment in giving? How do you better align your mission? So don't mission drift, don't just become a food bank because food banks are really popular and you're an arts and culture center. That's not what we're saying here. But how do you align the current mission and what you stand for to what's relevant and what's resonating and kind of link those two together?

21:19 - 21:43

And then on the other side of that, where funding comes from. Benchmarking. Look at your current giving, take inventory and audit. Are we determining that this is just a variation this year or an ongoing trend? Is this an anomaly for our organization or are we really in line with what is happening in the rest of the country? How do we need to adjust our forecast and maybe diversify funding sources?

21:44 - 22:05

A lot of people that I've worked with say we're kind of surprised. We expected corporations to be a much bigger part of this conversation. We mistakenly believed that foundations and corporations are where it's at. and that that's the bulk of charitable giving. But overwhelmingly, as you see in this report, individuals are the biggest source.

22:06 - 22:48

So I've looked at kind of development balance sheets, if you will, with organizations and said, wow, 60 percent of your giving is coming from corporations. That's incredible. But look at what an opportunity you have with individuals then. And I almost argue that don't individuals also make up corporations and foundations? So isn't really one hundred percent of giving maybe coming from individuals? So I think exploring some disconnects with your own thinking and exploring kind of where you're spending your time and energy as a fundraiser, as a board, the giving vehicles and strategies you're employing, and really using this report as the benchmarking tool and educational tool to bring that to life.

22:48 - 23:40

Yeah, and actually so I would mention two trends where we slot and you were mentioning mission alignment, or alignment with values. Obviously we manage investments. And so looking at with so many organizations this year, Margaret, as you know, we've been having conversations with boards of directors and executives around how do we look at our entire enterprise and align it with what we believe in, whether it's antiracism, whether it's our mission as an institution, how do we better align our investments as well? Our purchasing program. Right. Or all of those different things. How do we align that with who we are and what we want the change in the world to be? And the other piece, Margaret, that I know you work on a lot with our organizations when they are working with donors is all of the different types of planned giving vehicles as well. That'll be an interesting thing to watch going forward also.

23:40 - 23:45

Yeah, the alphabet soup that is planned giving, [...] and all of that.

23:45 - 24:35

Speaking of, I had a question for Laura, kind of in that space about requested and planned giving. People typically consider their legacy visiting and revisiting estate planning when faced with a major life event. Well, last year was a giant universal major life event for everyone in the world, and we experienced it all at once. So this past year, my wealth planning colleagues were working with a lot of individuals, families to plan for future requests. And on the flip side, I've been working with countless organizations going to resurrect their planned giving, their legacy giving societies, focusing both on during-life gifts, but also end of life gifts. So as you can see, it's a huge part of our business. And I was wondering how the data accounts for these, is it as pledges or is it is the bequest that actually hit the nonprofit in a given year? I assume the latter, but I'd love to hear how you guys think about that.

24:36 - 24:51

So Giving USA counts only actual cash transactions. So, for example, going back to corporate giving, we heard lots of corporate pronouncements about what they were going to do about things like racial equity and workforce development. Some of those were multiyear

24:51 - 24:52

And so, of course, they weren't...

24:52 - 25:48

Those cash outlays didn't occur in 2020. They weren't counted. Similarly with bequests, it's one reason why you will see that bequest giving tends to be very volatile in our data. The year Joan Kroc died, and she was enormously generous to a number of organizations, Salvation Army Public Broadcasting. But the next year there wasn't a bequest of nearly that size and so it looked like a decline. So just know it's volatile, given that often the largest gifts that are given do come in the form of bequests. Another thing that we are seeing, though, and that we're starting to look at tracking is that increasingly people are shifting from bequests to designations, and that particularly for everyday households thinking about their retirement assets, thinking about a life insurance policy they may have through their employer, that wasn't part of their initial long term planning. We're seeing more and more happen through those simple beneficiary designations.

25:48 - 26:39

At some point, we might want to have another conversation like this one, because there are some...the policy outlook is filled with a lot of potential legislation that could have a significant impact on all of this, most notably the elimination of the stepped-up basis for inherited assets. If that happens, we're going to see, first of all, a rush to everybody's trust and estate counsel, so that they can re-evaluate the decisions that they've made. I think in the short term, it could be a boon for the nonprofit sector. But I don't think we should celebrate because in the long term, I think that it will mean that some of the families that have traditionally supported us will simply have fewer resources. Thanks, Laura. That covers the end-of-life gift side of life planned giving. The during-life gifts.

26:39 - 27:18

I wanted to pick your brain a little bit about donor advised funds because they're becoming more and more common vehicle for gifting. But they also remain this intimidating mystery to many development teams who are just trying to gain access to these robust, elusive pools of money. Could you explain how Giving USA data currently accounts for it, since they're made both in... it's a charitable gift when it's made into the donor advised fund, and out of the donor advised fund. And if there's any trends you're seeing, because the DAF part of the pie is growing, and so is that overall giving growing or just individuals shifting their giving from checkbooks to DAF and so on and so forth?

27:19 - 27:47

That's a great question and it's some of each. So we think that about half of the giving from foundations that we count is actually giving from either donor advised funds or from closely held family foundations. So individual donors making decisions about what used to be their own money. And so it is a significant...it's one of the reasons why we've seen a decline in the giving by individuals slice of the pie, but a correlating increase in the giving from foundations.

27:47 - 28:14

So when a gift goes into a donor advised fund, it's counted as a gift from whatever sector it comes from. Almost always gifts into donor advised funds come from individuals. But I can tell you our firm has a small donor advised fund that we use to match our employees' gifts. And so that would have been counted as a miniscule gift from the corporate sector in the year that we set that up. So they come from all sources, but largely individuals. So that's where it's counted.

28:14 - 28:54

And then it goes into the donor advised fund. So it's going to go into either gifts to public society benefit, if it's a donor advised funds such as the one that that you sponsor, or any of the other national donor advised funds sponsor, it counts as a gift to public society benefit. If it goes into a donor advised fund at a community foundation, it's kind of as a gift to a foundation. If it goes into a donor advised fund, more and more we are sophisticated higher education institutions, some healthcare systems sponsoring their own internal donor advised funds. And so it would count as a gift into that sector. But the thing that we do is net it out. We don't want to double count money in, money

28:54 - 29:02

So we give you the net of money in and money out to donor advised funds. So it doesn't have as dramatic an impact as you might think.

29:03 - 29:22

I will say we're currently in the field with a research project to look at donor advised funds. We expect a special report to come out in November of this year. Excellent. And moving forward, there will be a chapter devoted to donor advised funds in the book, probably right between sources and uses, since it's a little bit of each.

29:22 - 29:51

So you just helped us out in terms of a topic for a future episode. This is great, Laura. So we're going to book you again to come back and tell us about it. This is huge for us. I think both, as Margaret mentioned, in all the work we do with nonprofits who are out there raising funds to support their missions, but also all of the private individuals who are philanthropic and want to give back. And so we...it's right at that nexus between these different parts of philanthropy. So that's excellent. Thank you both so much.

29:51 - 30:14

Margaret, this was so helpful to have you here to share a little bit about your insights into the world that we're working with on a day to day level and certainly, Laura, it's such a pleasure to have you and be able to share your insights based on all of your experience. And so as you're both counseling nonprofits and foundations, wrap up here, what is one piece of advice that you'd leave them with based on our conversation today?

30:15 - 30:19

I think I would say, first of all, be bold.

30:20 - 30:40

Philanthropists like to solve big problems. And so... and we have plenty of big problems in 2020. So be bold and have meaningful conversations with donors about the difference that their dollars can make, don't presume to make decisions for them. Oh, now's not the time to ask because things are disrupted. Don't make that decision for them.

30:40 - 30:44

Be open and an invitational, but have the conversation.

30:44 - 30:47

That's great. Thank you. How about you, Margaret?

30:48 - 31:25

Yeah, not too dissimilar. I think society comes out of the past year. The time is ripe for innovation. So seize this opportunity to take inventory of development practices, audit how they've been serving you the past three to five-plus years, then take a look at those fundraising strategies in light of these trends, all this data that we've just digested together, and determine if these strategies are what are going to continue to maximize dollars moving into the next three to five years. If they are, that's great. Likely there's a little bit of change, some minor or major tweaks that our organizations can make to better position themselves for success and better serve the communities that they work with.

31:26 - 31:27

Excellent. Thank you both.

31:27 - 31:53

And for all of you listening for a snapshot of the data in terms of what we've discussed today, we do have a really cool infographic from Benefactor Group. I love it. It's really helpful in terms of distilling some of the information, key information from the most recent Giving USA report. So don't miss that. So thank you both so much for joining us today. It's been great chatting with you.

31:54 - 31:55

Thank you, Claire. Thanks, Laura.

31:56 - 32:00

Yeah, it was a great conversation. I'm always happy to talk about Giving USA.

32:00 - 32:33

This was really excellent. And look, thank you all for listening. If you'd like to learn more on Bernstein Foundation and Institutional Advisory, please see the link to our blogs in this episode's description. And if you enjoyed this episode and haven't subscribed to our podcast yet, please, please, please go to Apple podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe and rate us. Also, please e-mail us with your thoughts, questions, and feedback to insights@Bernstein.com. And be sure to find us on Twitter at BernsteinPWM.

32:34 - 32:42

Thanks, everyone.